Curse

Spura · Nov 13, 2006, 01:16 PM // 13:16

Every time there is a whine storm around here (AI updates, warrior rune updates), I need to just remind myself that I am in fact arguing with people who use HP mods in PvE.

Clearly if armor mods are free or 1k and HP mods go for 30k (depends on weapon), PvE players use them a lot. Why are all these players buying HP mods? Did any of them ask themselves, why is HP mod the best? I'd wager no, they simply see other people buying HP mods for large sums, so it must be good, right? (and these same people rage "quit" GW when their build they copied off wiki gets a nerf bat).

Can someone please explain to me how HP mod helps you in any way in pve? From where I stand 30 extra HP doesn't make a squat of difference unless you are facing a spike, which you likely aren't in pve. When your healers run out of energy is when you're gonna die in pve and 30 HP isn't gonna matter at that point.

5 armor(8.3% damage reduction) will save you 30 HP every 361 armor affected damage you take(361 damage after being reduced by your armor). In pve there is a lot of physical and elemental damage. So I am not sure why people buy HP mod at such high prices instead of using AL mod which is also very cheap.

moko · Nov 13, 2006, 01:23 PM // 13:23

so they can boost themselves with superior runes without ending at 105 health >.> rofl :|

dunno why, suppose people just dont use their brain and like the "30" better than a "5" or "7" because its higher? i dunno;

you can ask yourself the same question, just with Energy/Armor, why do people wear full energy armor? why not + armor? same reason, most of them are just noobs. :P

stueyman2099 · Nov 13, 2006, 01:30 PM // 13:30

I use these things simply becuase my characters are set up to PvP, and I can't be bothered to setup stuff just to PvE (I find it's just not nessecary for me)

I'd note that fortitude mods are going down in price since the update that basicly makes pvp only characters on par with the PvE ones. I'd guess from that that the PvPers aren't out there driving the price up.

Sedgehammer · Nov 13, 2006, 01:46 PM // 13:46

It really is to make up for all of the runes. My elementalist uses a Superior Fire and a Major Energy Storage rune, so she also has a rune of Superior Vigor and uses Koosun's Staff.

And my boyfriend chest runs, so I never pay a lot for health mods.

And now, health mods are cheaper, anyway. The prices dropped significantly with Nightfall.

HawkofStorms · Nov 13, 2006, 01:49 PM // 13:49

Eh, even so, fortitude is still useful in certain PvE areas because a lot of places have hexes and degen.

And, there are the occasion times where I only had 1-5 health remaining as the last guy left alive in the party as I booked it in high gear away.

stueyman2099 · Nov 13, 2006, 02:05 PM // 14:05

why would you use major energy storage? get yourself a minor and then a rune of attune if you really really really need the energy that badly. 3 energy just isn't worth 35 hp

Effigy · Nov 13, 2006, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Armor always helps, but regardless of whether you're playing PvE or PvP, much of the damage you really need to worry about is armor-ignoring. If you were going to play only PvE, then I suppose the armor mods would be better. However, I try to make most of my PvE characters ready for PvP as well, so it would be a waste of time and money to buy both. Most PvE is easy enough that it doesn't merit buying special gear for it.

Spura · Nov 13, 2006, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

Eh, even so, fortitude is still useful in certain PvE areas because a lot of places have hexes and degen.

4 reasons have been brought up.

1. Degen:

Yes there's a common misconception that degen makes extra HP useful. This is false, rarely is 30 HP something to save you from wipe, if you are that low, healers have failed anyway, and if you are wiping then you are probably doing it wrong anyway. The only difference HP mod makes in an area with lots of degen is wiping 2 sec later than usual after healers run out of energy. In 2 sec a monk might squeeze out another heal, but that is just prolonging inevitable.

2. Runes:

I don't know about you but I usually use 1 sup or 2 major runes so my HP is fine. Rarely do people need extra attributes that much to sacrifise HP. The sup fire major ES example is a nice one. Why sacrifise 35 HP to get 3 max energy when you already have around 60?

3. PvP:

Not much point in making pve characters for pvp with armor swapping disabled and all. And I know some enjoy pvping with their pve characters. But somehow I doubt that majority of buyers are making pvp ready characters.

4. Armor ignoring damage:

Here I once again can't see how 30 extra HP is much better than no mod at all. Better have +armor and have it work with the enemy warriors, rangers etc than to have HP mod and have it be a very slim advantage in case you run into a lot of armor ignoring damage. Armor ignoring damage is less of a threat in pve because mobs with lots of it are rare. Also enemies that are level 24 and 28 (practically all the second half of nightfall, all the hard areas) get bonus to their armor affeced damage because of level difference, while armor ignoring damage stays unaffected.

Ensign · Nov 13, 2006, 11:14 PM // 23:14

I switched all my weapons to +health when I was tricking out my PvE guys for PvP. Now, I'm slowly switching back to armor with little excitement. It's just a better mod in PvE, but the differences are small enough most of the time that it's hard to care.

Peace,
-CxE

Thom Bangalter · Nov 14, 2006, 01:20 AM // 01:20

It helps you if you're running a superior rune and hit some DP.

Also, as effigy noted, pve is generally easy enough that it doesn't really matter.

martialis · Nov 14, 2006, 06:17 AM // 06:17

Of course +30 health won't save you from a party wipe, and neither will 5 armour.

The biggest reason, I think, is that at high armour levels, +5 armour makes very little difference. For example, a warrior taking aggro under Gladiator's Defense has to take a lot of damage without healing. Assuming he takes 361 armour-adjusted damage in that time, he will have taken much more armour-ignoring damage and degen. So the +health will be better in that situation.

A character has to have a balance of armour and health to protect against different kinds of damage, so sometimes a +health mod is more versatile.

Tranquilis · Nov 14, 2006, 02:37 PM // 14:37

I solo a LOT, and I'll tell ya, without the extra 80 HP (sup rune + max fortitude), I'd have died a LOT more than I have. Since dying on a solo is often the same as a required re-zone in the higher level zones, the HP mods have saved me many, many hours.

Also, spikes do happen in PvE, and more often that you might expect, especially in the high-level zones.

Jezza · Nov 14, 2006, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Lets not forget that +health mods are unaffected by dp. Get yourself +50 from sup vig, +60 from weapon, +10-20 from vitae, +35 from armor and you have +155-165 extra health.

DP at 60% gives you 192 health at level 20. 192 + 165 = 357.

Spura · Nov 14, 2006, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I switched all my weapons to +health when I was tricking out my PvE guys for PvP. Now, I'm slowly switching back to armor with little excitement. It's just a better mod in PvE, but the differences are small enough most of the time that it's hard to care.

Peace,
-CxE

The difference in effect is small, but the difference in price isn't small.

Or at least wasn't.

Spura · Nov 14, 2006, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by martialis

The biggest reason, I think, is that at high armour levels, +5 armour makes very little difference.

You are taking 8.3% less than whatever you are taking now. The difference in numbers is smaller but % is the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by martialis

he will have taken much more armour-ignoring damage and degen. So the +health will be better in that situation.

A character has to have a balance of armour and health to protect against different kinds of damage, so sometimes a +health mod is more versatile.

This is false. The +health mod does NOT protect you against damage of any kind. How does extra health reduce the damage you are taking and thus the damage that needs to be healed? It doesn't. All the talk about runes an such. I this it is very easy to have enough health that even with some DP you still have over 400 HP, which is enough to get through those semi-spikes in pve.

Also, a single axe attacker deals out 1500 armor affected damage per minute, even more if it is a lvl 24 or 28 mob. So in any longer fight with some warrior, ranger, eles etc, your team will likely take several thousand armor affected damage which saves you tons of HP if you use armor mods. What does HP mod save you? Nothing.

Sir Mad · Nov 14, 2006, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spura

4 reasons have been brought up.

1. Degen:

Yes there's a common misconception that degen makes extra HP useful. This is false, rarely is 30 HP something to save you from wipe, if you are that low, healers have failed anyway, and if you are wiping then you are probably doing it wrong anyway. The only difference HP mod makes in an area with lots of degen is wiping 2 sec later than usual after healers run out of energy. In 2 sec a monk might squeeze out another heal, but that is just prolonging inevitable.

That's not a misconception. The more HP you have, the longer you stay alive. Armor is useless against degen, HP boosts ain't. You're example is wrong: have you never been the last player alive on a map with no rez shrines, running away from monsters? I use to have a +60hp staff in my 4th slot and it saved my *** many times (and the whole team) under such circumstances.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spura

2. Runes:

I don't know about you but I usually use 1 sup or 2 major runes so my HP is fine. Rarely do people need extra attributes that much to sacrifise HP. The sup fire major ES example is a nice one. Why sacrifise 35 HP to get 3 max energy when you already have around 60?

With 1 sup rune and 1 sup vigor (why do I doubt you have one?

) and no fortitude mod, you have 455hp. Yes that's fine. But if you compare HP only, 485 is better than 455.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spura

3. PvP:

Not much point in making pve characters for pvp with armor swapping disabled and all. And I know some enjoy pvping with their pve characters. But somehow I doubt that majority of buyers are making pvp ready characters.

That would be a valid argument against fortitude mods if defense mods were better in PvE, indeed. But they're not (I'm going to explain after).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spura

4. Armor ignoring damage:

Here I once again can't see how 30 extra HP is much better than no mod at all. Better have +armor and have it work with the enemy warriors, rangers etc than to have HP mod and have it be a very slim advantage in case you run into a lot of armor ignoring damage. Armor ignoring damage is less of a threat in pve because mobs with lots of it are rare. Also enemies that are level 24 and 28 (practically all the second half of nightfall, all the hard areas) get bonus to their armor affeced damage because of level difference, while armor ignoring damage stays unaffected.

See the comments about degen, as it's actually the same thing.

-----------------------------

Alright now Fortitude vs Defense mods:

When Factions came out I bought a +5e sword for my monk and wanted to know which mod was the best. So I went to the Isles of the Nameless, and compared how much damage I was taking from the obelisk (which deals constant damage) I was taling with and without a +5AL mod, with a 70AL armor (+10 while enchanted), and how many stikes till I die. I don't have the numbers, but the conclusion was with 70 AL the fortitude mod was slightly better (+5Al appeared as the equivalent of a +29.xxx hp mod in this case). So from this point of view we can say there is no real difference.

Yes but: as said above, the +30hp are unconditional, which means the more DP you have the best it is compared to a defense mod. See Jezza's post for numbers.

And again, it helps against degen and unconditional damage: defense mods don't.

Having a fortitude mod is not a requirement in PvE, and you can do very well with a defense mod too, and save your plats for something else. However, it's still better.

Spura · Nov 14, 2006, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Mad

I don't have the numbers, but the conclusion was with 70 AL the fortitude mod was slightly better (+5Al appeared as the equivalent of a +29.xxx hp mod in this case). So from this point of view we can say there is no real difference.

This practically proves AL is better. In the process of losing all your HP, it saved you 29 HP. But you do get healed normally right? In any battle characters take several times their HP worth of damage, and if you save 29 HP each time you take equivalent of total HP worth of damage then AL mod is vastly better. n times 29 > 30.

HP mod is like energy storage. It is a front-ended one time bonus when you enter a fight. Once you fall down to 30 energy you have to live off same regen as all other casters. You get no benefit from it, once that buffer has been spent. HP mod is the same. Except ES doubles energy pool and HP mod adds less than 10%.

So no matter if the battle lasts 1 minute or 10, with HP mod you can take exactly 30 damage more than without it.

Armor mod is like expertise the more it is activated, the larger its effects. The longer the fight, the more damage you are able to take with it than without it.

If that is a hard concept, here a fictional scenario that should show clearly.

So you have 1 monk with +60 HP weapon and +35 HP armor, base HP 480, let's say mobs attack him and he's able to squeeze 2000 HP worth of healing on a short notice. So to kill him mobs need to do 2575 HP worth of damage.

Now we have 1 monk with 10 AL weapon and 10 AL armor and base HP 480, same 2000 HP worth of heals. The 20 AL makes him take only 70.71% damage. So to kill him mobs need to do 3507 damage.

Ok now let's say half of damage is degen or armor ignoring(and that's a stretch with all the warriors, rangers, eles, paragons, assassins, dervishes, wand attacks).

So 0.5 * X + 0.5 * 0.7071 * X = 2480.

Now they need to do 2906 damage, which is still 350 damage more than the HP mod one.

And the longer the fight, more it goes in favor of armor mods.

In short fights it doesn't matter what you run, because monks won't run out of energy if you have armor mods or HP mods. Characters are equally functional at 100 HP and at 400 HP. You just need enough HP to survive spikes.

When monks start running out of energy then obviously a lot of damage has been healed and this is one of the longer fights. In logner fights, armor mods take a large lead. 2 monks should be able to output 4000 HP of healing or more, and that is thousand or more HP saved with armor mods even when half of damage isn't affected by armor. You'd need something like 90% damage be degen or armor ignoring for HP mods to be better.

Do the math.

Effigy · Nov 14, 2006, 06:24 PM // 18:24

But this whole argument assumes that PvE really requires you to use equipment that would be optimal for it. If HP mods are effective in PvP, which is actually difficult, then why wouldn't they work in PvE, which is usually not?

Like I said before, if you use a character only for PvE then armor mods are better. But if you want to use the character for PvP, then there's no need to get equipment specifically for PvE because PvP gear will work just fine.

martialis · Nov 14, 2006, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

if you are that low, healers have failed anyway, and if you are wiping then you are probably doing it wrong anyway.

Quote:

This is false. The +health mod does NOT protect you against damage of any kind. How does extra health reduce the damage you are taking and thus the damage that needs to be healed?

Quote:

The more HP you have, the longer you stay alive. Armor is useless against degen, HP boosts ain't. You're example is wrong: have you never been the last player alive on a map with no rez shrines, running away from monsters? I use to have a +60hp staff in my 4th slot and it saved my *** many times (and the whole team) under such circumstances.

Everyone else in this thread is actually not retarded. We know exactly what armour does and have seen calculations of its effect in many other threads. Armour and health mods do different things. I was trying to explain what health mods do, and why they are useful, which is what you asked for. You seem to be repeating the same thing over and over.

Ic Zero · Nov 14, 2006, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

you can ask yourself the same question, just with Energy/Armor, why do people wear full energy armor? why not + armor? same reason, most of them are just noobs. :P

because it speeds things up? i don't see how that makes someone a noob